It came about this way. # 7 - Raleigh, N.C.: What do you think motivates a human being to become a serial killer? If Morrill actually believed that Graysmith's projector theory was true, he would not continue to exclude or include suspects based on their handwriting. Graysmith allegedly consulted Sherwood Morrill regarding Vaughn's writing but this occurred after Morrill had retired. It was a lot of fun. According to Graysmith's version of events in ZODIAC, the family suspected that Allen was the Zodiac, they held a family meeting to discuss what to do, and the family reported Allen to the police. Graysmith has never produced the map and no one has ever confirmed its existence. Later he discovered that they belonged to a woman passenger from earlier in the day." They also found guns of every caliber and live pipe bombs, Zodiac did tell us that he had bombs in his basement. 298, paperback edition). According to Graysmith's version of events in ZODIAC, the family suspected that Allen was the Zodiac, they held a family meeting to discuss what to do, and the family reported Allen to the police. If Toschi knew that the size seven gloves were too small to belong to the killer or Allen, Toschi would not have any reason to say that Allen had the same gloves size as the Zodiac. The television show who organized the testing obtained them from there. According to Graysmith's scenario, Allen (as the Zodiac) wrote a Zodiac letter which was addressed to a local newspaper and written in Zodiac-like writing. David Fincher and his production team produced a feature length documentary about Arthur Leigh Allen which presented a great deal of information and evidence yet this map was never mentioned or shown during the film. According to Bawart's report for the Vallejo Police Department, Mageau was asked to assess the certainty of his identification of Allen on a scale of 1 to 10, and Mageau replied that his level of certainty was an 8. Do you ever worry that you're slandering an innocent man posthumously, especially in light of recent DNA information? They kept me in the loop at every stage of their quest over 3 years. Once again, Graysmith proved that he had no regard for the facts and that he was happy to confuse and mislead those in search of reliable information about the Zodiac case. In December of 1980, Graysmith had said that his book would be published by Norton and available in 1981 (the last entries in Graysmith's book are dated around this time). The book was not widely available then so that was not why they became copycats. Graysmith states that he is glad to have left the case behind but, at the same time, every word he utters proves that he has been consistently obsessed with the case, writing two books in less than 7 years. I respect their opinion. In his answer here, Graysmith once again created his own facts and evidence in order to make his suspect seem guilty. It is unlikely, if not implausible, that the Zodiac used a projector on this occasion. FACT CHECK: In other interviews, Graysmith claimed that he and his editors had removed 500 pages from his first book; in his answer here, Graysmith raised that number to almost 900 pages. A report prepared and distributed by the California Department of Justice stated that the gloves found in the cab were men's gloves, size seven. No one has ever come forward to claim that Allen said he was at Lake Berryessa on that day. In his book ZODIAC, Graysmith claimed the suspected Zodiac letter of 1978 was authentic, and he presented an elaborate, though seriously flawed, theory to support this claim. There is still so much to learn. Throughout the postings, Graysmith made many false and unsubstantiated claims, often in his attempts to convict his pet suspect in the court of public opinion. It wouldn't make a difference, but they again needed to add something to spice it up. Graysmith states that the copycat killer in New York appeared "long after" he had published his first book. FACT CHECK: Graysmith's claims are once again untrue. I located witnesses at Berryessa who identified Allen as being at the lake that day--the son of the now deceased dentist and one of the college women. Graysmith was clearly suggesting that the death of Allen's father in 1966 had somehow inspired Allen to commit murder, despite the fact that Allen's father had died in 1971-- almost two years after the Zodiac's last confirmed murder. Not as a stab at Mr. Fincher, of course, who did a fabulous job, merely something there wasn't room for. 219). Graysmith claimed that the Zodiac letters had been mishandled, exposed to the Sacramento summers, and were not refrigerated. Arthur Leigh Allen Born: December 18, 1933 Birthplace: Honolulu, Hawaii Death: August 26, 1992, Vallejo, California, USA (kidney failure from diabetes) I like killing people because it is so much fun. FACT CHECK: Toschi, Bawart and Conway may have believed that Arthur Leigh Allen was the Zodiac but the facts strongly indicate that he was innocent and the San Francisco and Vallejo police departments did not endorse Allen as a viable suspect after the DNA, handwriting, fingerprint and even palm print comparisons had excluded Allen as a suspect. Graysmith claimed that, in February 1997, the SFPD had contacted him regarding the results of DNA testing on the envelope which had contained the suspected Zodiac forgery of April 1978. Once again, Graysmith is attempting to mislead readers by suggesting that handling the letters could somehow insert DNA and genetic material underneath the stamps and sealed areas of the envelopes. Graysmith states that the copycat killer in New York appeared "long after" he had published his first book. Downey did a fantastic job. I was in AUTOFOCUS, a movie starring Greg Kinnear about Hogan's Heroes' star Bob Crane made from my book, but that ended up on the cutting room floor. David Fincher and his production team produced a feature length documentary about Arthur Leigh Allen which presented a great deal of information and evidence yet this map was never mentioned or shown during the film. Bryan Hartnell, the survivor from Berryessa, did tell me the hood was very neatly sewn. Surviving victim Michael Mageau described the suspect at the Blue Rock Springs Park shooting as a "WMA, short, possible 5'8', was real heavy set, beefy build... not blubbery fat, but real beefy, possibly 195 to 200 [lbs] or maybe even larger... short curly hair, light brown almost blond... with a large face." The evidence proves that none of the other witnesses had ever identified Allen (and Graysmith has never provived any evidence to support his claims that the boy witness or one of the girl witnesses at Berryessa had ever identified Allen). FACT CHECK: Police reports and other official documents state that investigators examined the possibility that Charles Manson's notorious "Family" of killers was responsible for the Zodiac crimes but determined that no credible evidence existed to support this theory. After ten years of trying to find Zodiac I walked into that store and saw him face to face. In Graysmith's fantasy version of the facts, someone could have touched the letters and left their DNA on the paper, and this explained why later DNA testing did not match Allen. Michael Mageau described the suspect at the Blue Rock Springs Park shooting as a "WMA, short, possible 5'8", was real heavy set, beefy build... not blubbery fat, but real beefy, possibly 195 to 200 [lbs] or maybe even larger... short curly hair, light brown almost blond... with a large face." Mark Ruffallo simple became Toschi. He's got the same shoe size and glove size as Zodiac - I'm sure it's just a coincidence." They have the bug. # 5 - Arlington, Va.: What about the man who wrote the movie posters and who had almost identical handwriting to Zodiac (except for his K's)? "Just under the dash, Toschi found a pair of dull-black leather gloves. He also pointed to the picture of another man in the photo lineup and stated that the face of that individual was similar to the face of the Zodiac. In short, Mageau's description did not match Allen and his identification of Allen, despite these descrepencies, led many to question the accuracy of his identification. No one saw the shooter on Lake Herman Road so no description exists. Check out Zodiac for the verbatim accounts. FACT CHECK: Graysmith claims that he waited until 1986 to publish his book out of concern for generating a copycat killer. Robert is convinced that this is Arthur Leigh Allen, and quickly rushes to Toschi's place in the middle of the night to tell him, and the former homicide detective finally relents for a meeting. I though at first that Zodiac might be two men. # 9 - Minneapolis, Minn.: I was impressed by the weight given to handwriting analysis. Manson prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi and other law enforcement officials have dismissed this theory. # 10 - Arlington, Va.: Why wasn't the sister of the first woman murdered, who I believe you found in prison, shown a photographic lineup? While recovering in the hospital, Mageau provided a description of his attacker which did not match Arthur Leigh Allen. My job was to keep the case alive, to make it vivid and to make certain that someone reading the book might have the answer to the puzzle. They were soaked with blood but were too small for a man. The gloves found in the cab were most likely too small to belong to the individual described by witnesses to the crime. It seems the most obvious course to obtain a conviction. FACT CHECK: Graysmith never mentioned this "Leigh" in his books and he had never identified this man. Whether-or-not he's the Zodiac, he's still portrayed as a creepy scumbag. Official documents and media interviews, as well as the expert's family, demonstrate that Morrill's opinions never changed throughout his many years on the case. FACT CHECK: Graysmith's claims are once again untrue. It will suck you in. He got it just right. # 26 - So, you really went into the hardware store to see him? Conway and Lt. Jim Husted of Vallejo PD were right and that the Zodiac was Arthur Leigh Allen. # 29 - Providence, R.I.: What about the physical disparity between the killer seen leaving the Stine cab and Leigh Allen? He is the most accessible of all the actors, a regular guy and if you have a chance to see him on Broadway please go. According to Graysmith, the Zodiac used handwriting samples obtained from several different people and an enlarger/projector in order to fabricate his handwriting style. Was Starr, out of hatred or even love of his father, dressing up in his father's clothes to do the killing?" If Toschi had determined, in 1969, that the gloves belonged to a woman passenger, as Graysmith wrote, he would have no reason to believe that the gloves belonged to the killer when searching Allen's trailer in 1971. Allen's father Ethan died in 1971, shortly before Allen became a suspect. Graysmith's book was published in the spring of 1986 and the New York Zodiac first appeared in the summer of 1990. On October 6, 1969, just months after the shooting at Blue Rock Springs Park, Allen was interviewed by a Vallejo detective who described the suspect as "6'1", 241 (lbs), heavy build and is bald." The book ended the reign of Zodiac. FACT CHECK: The man seen by several witnesses at Lake Berryessa was described as having a full head of dark brown hair. He visited Dave in San Francisco and came back as him. Bob Vaughn was never a suspect in the Zodiac case and no evidence has ever been presented to implicate him in the crimes or to indicate that he wrote the Zodiac letters. While George Bawart and Vallejo Police Captain Roy Conway described Mageau's identification as "positive," the Vallejo Police Department did not consider the identification to be valid. It seems very strange that Bob Vaughn's handwriting was the most closely matched to Zodaic's. # 6 - Seattle: How much of Avery's spiral (that is, the drinking, the drugs, the loss of job) was a result of his own obsesession with the Zodiac? Police also found articles about Mel Belli and the Zodiac case. Despite Graysmith's repeated claims to the contrary, no credible evidence exists that Allen knew ANY of the Zodiac victims or that he was ever near or at any of the Zodiac crime scenes. FACT CHECK: Graysmith never mentioned this "Leigh" in his books and he had never identified this man. Robert Graysmith: Thanks for asking. According to Graysmith's version of events in ZODIAC, the family suspected that Allen was the Zodiac, they held a family meeting to discuss what to do, and the family reported Allen to the police. He admitted to being there a hour before in letters and to his fellow workers at the Sonoma Auto Parts store. Allen was smart and physically formidable. My best friends in the whole world are my sons David, an accountant, Aaron (one of the five CI directors at a major studio whos credits include both Stuart Little films, Castaway and so on) and my daughter Margot who is also with a film studio in Hollywood. I mean, he's not obese." Graysmith has also claimed that San Francisco police discovered a map of Lake Berryessa during the search of Allen's trailer and that this map was signed by the suspect. According to the police reports, the investigators and the family of Arthur Leigh Allen, police contacted Allen's brother Ron and his sister-in-law Karen to inform them that Allen was a suspect in the Zodiac case. That is why I have always thought the American public should be enlisted to solve difficult crimes. Recall the neatness of the 312 word cipher. Graysmith allegedly consulted Sherwood Morrill regarding Vaughn's writing but this occurred after Morrill had retired. Just kidding. He's got the same shoe size and glove size as Zodiac - I'm sure it's just a coincidence." In his answer here, Graysmith once again created his own facts and evidence in order to make his suspect seem guilty. George Bawart, a close friend of mind, tracked down Mike to a LA airport and was able for the first time show him a photo line up of five driver's license pictures of two suspects and fillers. Bawart told me that if they had a cell phone they would have had Zodiac. And as I said David Fincher is the only director who could have made this film and he made it as a newspaper film along the lines of ALL THE PRESIDENTS MEN. Robert Graysmith: Yes. Paul Avery was healthy and gainfully employed in the late 1970s, and, he was still employed and in good health when interviewed for a television program in 1989. Graysmith's claims to the contrary are not only false but born of his need to explain how police had failed to arrest his suspect when so much seemingly damning evidence implicated Allen. Graysmith claims in one quick sentence, "Sherwood Morrill confirmed my theory." A listing of programs and services DHS provides including staff contact information. In truth, Avery never wrote such a letter. Graysmith has never produced any evidence to support his claim that the boy had identified Allen as the man he had seen at Lake Berryessa on the day of the Zodiac attack. I have published 7 true crime books, 3 have been movies. Zodiac needed a T-square, lighttable, triangle and other drafting tools to draw that. Melanie Ed Setrakian. Robert Graysmith: One hunded percent accurate. Did he ever wear glasses? This is the first time I have answered questions in a forum like this. Graysmith has repeatedly claimed that eyewitnesses had identified Allen. Graysmith seems oblivious to this blatant contradiction. Graysmith claims that he "worked with Sherwood Morrill" when, in fact, Graysmith claimed that he had consulted with Morrill after his retirement from the California Department of Justice. # 14 - Freising, Germany: Was any thought ever given to a connection between the Zodiac killings and Charles Manson's group of hippies? : The first guy who was murdered in the movie, the one with the girl who were on a hillside ... What's happened to him? I received letters from health care workers who had crossed his path briefly and heard he was having a tough time. FACT CHECK: In his book ZODIAC, Graysmith presented his proposed solution to the Zodiac's unsolved 340 symbol cipher. Dean Ferrin stated that no such party ever took place in his home and that he painted the house himself without the help of anyone else. In ZODIAC, Graysmith put forth the theory that Allen was the Zodiac, and, therefore, the author of the Zodiac's many handwritten messages. In short, Mageau's description did not match Allen and his identification of Allen, despite these descrepencies, led many to question the accuracy of his identification. 219). The letters were later returned to SFPD, having never been refrigerated, and taken from headquarters and into private hands, breaking the chain of custody. However, the DNA which was used to exclude Allen was obtained from an envelope, from underneath the stamp, and it is not likely that the DNA was transferred there by anyone handling the letters. It was if someone had struck a tuning fork, the room just vibrated and time stood still. Toschi and Armstrong both stated, in public and in private interviews, that the fingerprint and handwriting evidence would identify the Zodiac long after both fingerprint and handwriting evidence had excluded Allen as a suspect. Robert Graysmith: Yes. : Are you done with this case now or might you do another book about it? He used his elaborate projector theory to explain how Allen was able to disguise his handwriting and fool document experts such as Sherwood Morrill, who was only one of several experts to conclude that Allen did not write the Zodiac letters. Robert Graysmith: In those days I weighed 145 (mainly from the stress of the search) was shorter and had much bigger feet. It has been nearly 40 years. Here is an example of the manner in which Graysmith "changed" the facts in ZODIAC. I guess since handwriting cleared so many back then, they were not viable suspects by the time they got around to asking. A good example would be the calls to KGO-TV which could not be traced unless they had 15 minutes. Graysmith's description matches his suspect, Arthur Leigh Allen, and not the man seen by witnesses in the Zodiac case. 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